Ranting and raving about anything I feel like complaining about.

My Take on the Silverlight 5 Part of the MIX 11 Keynote

by

Silverlight

As many of you, my readers, did today I watched the MIX 11 Keynote with much interest about what the messaging around Silverlight 5 would be. Let me start out by saying that I am pretty invested in Silverlight (see my new Pluralsight course as an example of this). 

I was disappointed in Silverlight being pushed back to 2nd topic on the 2nd day, but I totally get why Windows Phone 7 got the headline and they had something new to announce (remember that all of Silvelight 5 was previewed in December).

I believe in Silverlight 5; and believe in it for business application development. In fact, that's the message that Microsoft has been pushing (and one i've been pushing for close to 5 years). I like the additions to Silverlight 5.  The new features wouldn't be the features i'd pick, but I think it fills the holes in the platform really well. So the keynote has come and went, what did I think?

I didn't like the keynote.  Period. If business application development is the big story (with media being a more minor story; or at least a smaller user base), why wasn't it highlighted at all in the keynote. In fact, the first demo (the Blue Angels) was a consumer facing *website*. The exactly thing we've been told that HTML5 is the perfect match for. To add insult to injury, the presenter made a point of saying the landing page was HTML5 and using the Video tag! It's a nice site, but its completely off message.

Next up John Papa came and showed off the 3D stack really well in a psuedo-business case and he did a good job showing off new features...but the big ticket items for business development were missing: Elevated Security changes, Elevated Security in the Browser, and Printing. No slide with them, nothing. In fact the only slides shown were the exact ones from the December firestarter.

I know this is MIX and the audience isn't supposed to be business app developers but web guys; but that was (to quote an unnamed MS employee) "pretending MIX 11 is the same as MIX 06". The Silverlight faithful were at the keynote and the buzz isn't good. Hearing from developers in the hallways after the talk, I heard this more than a few times "I guess Microsoft wants me to leave Silverlight and go to HTML5". If that's the message, tell us plainly.  But I don't think it is.

The bottom-line to me is that I think Silverlight continues to represent a great framework for application development and fits really well with B2B and Enterprise scenarios. But I would encourage Microsoft to be more consistent with the message and be better aware of who the audience is. They not only need to get new blood, but pushing the old blood out isn't serving anyone.

 

 
 

Comments

Gravatar Agreed!

Also where's the install numbers..where's our growth placebo!... bah!..#getoffmylawn :)
Scott Barnes (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar I agree with your view and find conflicting stories and dialog for Silverlight from Microsoft. In front of crowds they show the fun demos but then get ad when people lose focus on the biz apps dev.
Chris Woodruff (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Maybe we need another Silverlight Firestarter to recover from MIX11 like the 2010-12 "Firestarter" was needed to recover from the SL messaging problems at PDC-2010.
Vic Klien (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar I love SL because i Can use C# on server and client Side using asp.net mvc + Silverlight as plus in animations and good looking scenarious or in site app difficult to do with JavaScript. I hope Microsoft Will reveal at pdc a sort of converter like Script# to advantage .net devs and avoid JavaScript handcoding.

Even me did not liked the keynote. I'M hating IE9 for this. Idlf i have to use html5 give me also some graphic tools like blend, for svg export. Very sad.
Frank (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar I wish Microsoft would avoid dividing their community base and provide some tools for HTML5. These tools should leverage the investment in Siverlight. Call it server side Silverlight, or Script#++ - but they can't drive their developers to a cul-de-sac and tell them that they need to start over using a different technology.
Joe (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Agree. I think de as tech people have the message: Silverlight is for LOB applications, while HTML is for web sites but public perception gets affected by this kind of failures. This was a WP7 MIX, they need to push adoption and convince, they need also to rescue their browser history so it makes sense to me, but yes, kinda sucks.
Rodrigo Díaz Concha (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Using whizzy media to show off Silverlight is one main reasons people haven't understood the value of Silverlight. I also believe MS should bundle sl with ie9+ and windows, disabled if you must, but sl for biz is restricted because of corporate policy about installing products
pauliom (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Respectfully, I think that message was clear from last year's PDC. It was repeated from DevDiv leaders in their "HTML5 Emphasis" post (http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/standards-based-web-plug-ins-and-silverlight/) posted on Silverlight team (!) weblog few days ago.

They wrote there:

"Our emphasis is clear—over the coming months we’ll be particularly demonstrative of our emphasis on HTML5, in Internet Explorer and in tools. HTML5 is a solution for many scenarios, but developers should make the appropriate choice based on application needs, knowing that we have a heritage and a future vision of supporting a wide variety of technologies to meet those needs."

So, HTML5 is future, Silverlight is past or heritage.

I know it is hard to accept this if you invested time and money to Silverligt. And it is even more hard because Silverlight is probably better technology. But that's life.

Maybe there is some chances for Silverlight in WP7 development or in AppX applets development (in Win8), but not on web.

-- s.
SlavoF (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar SlavoF,

I don't quite buy that. The productivity that Silverlight gives you over HTML5 for apps, especially Enterprise apps is pretty dramatic. So I think it will still be in that space...but it is clear that movement towards HTML5 is appearing. I lived through HTML3 and HTML4 so I am still suspicious of cross-platform/browser being a reality.
Shawn Wildermuth (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar I agree with productivity argument. Right now when one try to build standard LOB app Silverlight and HTML5 are not comparable with regards to productivity. But that probably changes with time going, especially when standards stabilizes a little more (think about a one year) and serious HTML5 tooling comes.

Platforms (like iOS, Android, Linux, Windows, ...) and devices that use them are so different so cross-platform/browser portability never be a 100% true.

I do not think that Silverlight is dead.

Microsoft itself have big products that use Silverlight (like SQL Crescent, Azure control panel, System Center Concero, Intune Networking administration, ...) that use it. But it is all software for use within Windows/Microsoft techonology stack. When it comes to general/public internet use (say Office Web Apps) then there no Silverlight in MS products.

So when it is an app for controlled environment - say for given enterprise client, there is no problem with Silverlight, but for publicly faced web app on internet - then there is a problem. If you use Silverlight given web app won't work on majority devices (which runs iOS and Android).

So, my conclusion is - when when you are within Microsoft environment/stack then choosing Silverlight is OK, but when you are not, then it is not.

-- s.
SlavoF (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Day 1 keynote: suddenly HTML5 is all about "native performance and IE9 on Windows" with all the demo's being about "rich" rather than "reach" - what a disaster! I think the WinDev group did more to help Silverlight (it does "rich" better and it's here today) than the second day keynote did (as you say the emphasis was wrong, but Silverlight has been pretty much only about Phone for the last 6 months - check the blog post stats. You'd think Silverlight on the PC had gone away!)

Good news: I think Silverlight came out stronger after MIX11 than it was going in. Bad news: the mixed messages ("Is HTML5 about rich or reach. If it's the latter why spend so much time bashing the competition and emphasising 'native platform?'") mean that Microsoft came out WEAKER at the end :-(

The Microsoft space is a mess. First it was "WPF". Then they changed their mind and killed it with "The future is Silverlight 4". Then they "let go" Ray Ozzie which meant that suddenly Silverlight 4 wasn't the favourite child any more, but having killed WPF off that wasn't a viable alternative. So now we have HTML5 where despite all the hype IE10 has less support for HTML5 features than Chrome or Firefox. Microsoft are now in a continual "play catchup" game because they have no vision and can't stick to a strategy if it kills them.

The funniest thing was spending so much time on the Blue Angels who have a public facing web site that is currently HTML and Flash. I swear you couldn't make this stuff up.
Ian Smith (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar I dont see anything new in the beta that targets Business App development. except may be binding in styles
lee (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar 100% agree - I was very disappointed with the 1st key note as well - but too much religious fervour regarding HTML5 and IE10.

Silverlight is much better for business application development - but I see mixed messages coming from MS - perhaps that is why it called MIX ?

I have also been told by MS guys that WP7 is not an enterprise device - sigh !

Yes I could build business apps in HTML5 but it would take longer, the performance would be worse and the architecture less maintainable

Mike
Mike L (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Silverlight isn't a silver bullet. It doesn't work everywhere. HTML5 isn't a silver bullet either. There are two technologies that serve a purpose in it's environment.

I don't get why that is so hard to explain to some of you MS developers - like you can't really see that. I think it's pretty clear, the blog post with scottgu and the other 2 guys explained it as well.

There are most certainly sweet spots of both of these.

What I personally think is missing was mentioned above: many MS devs want a single tooling - they want to write their code in XAML/C# - ie. MS should invest in tooling like Script# that works similiar to development for Silverlight and outputs HTML5/JS/CSS code.
Steve (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar HTML 5 – What I got from Mix11 and the presentation of IE9 is there is no way cross-platform/browser is going to happen. That platform dependence is a given. If so then why not further SL5 for the IE9 IE10 browsers and general use.

SL5 – For years as far as I am concerned we have been put through he** with webforms because it was the so-called simple path for VB6 business application developers. Now we have the perfect solution for business applications and it seems sidelined. It took a while for MVC and ASP.Net webpages and I am hoping it does not take as long to realize what a gem SL is for business. The backend of any .Net website would also be best 100% SL.
Kim Rossey (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar lee,

Not mentioned in the Keynote, but LOB features include:

- Better Printing (not in the Beta)
- Elevated Trust in the Browser
- P/Invoke (not in the Beta)
- Full File System Access (in Elevated Trust)
Shawn Wildermuth (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Totally agreed! I didn't see the keynote yesterday but saw the recording today morning. Kinect got more exposure than Silverlight! What does kinect got to do with internet techonologies? Shawn, will Silverlight5 last release and goes Vista way?

Thanks for the article. Appreciate your work!
abdul (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar Microsoft is pushing me to the "root" C++. Period.
They are playing with our feelings and they are changing focuses like a blonde change dresses.
I don't know if they are seeing their behaviors in wide perspective but I think everything now is the mess.
I am waiting for MS to say now: hey guys program in whatever you want, because our tools have something for everything but not everything for something.

Very disappointed situation.
Betim Drenica (Posted Thursday, April 14, 2011)
Gravatar What frustrates me most is this clueless embrace of HTML5 as if it's some kinda champion while indeed it's a pile of, well let's call a spade a spade here, JUNK.

HTML never has a platform gene in it. It starts out as a bunch of tags for presenting DOCUMENTs online. Later on they felt the need of a script language to be more interactive so a halfbutted JavaScript came along. Then there's need of CSS, AJAX and all that. There's never any concrete, visionary planning in HTML. Everything was a throw-in and patch job, which is why it feels so weak, disjointed and inadequat as a moden APP platform.

Whoever thinking I'm throwing FUD at HTML5 just right click on any web pages and then view the source. You've learned from your rudimentary programming courses that a well structured program should have code and data separated and well-organized and yet you see a bunch of messy tags and scripts all entangled with each other in the web page source. Can anyone tell me in the straight face that it is not junk?
Lyngren (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar In order to really jump start HTML as a platform they need to completely ditch H5, send Javascript to trashbin (along with CSS) and start a brand new HTML6 that shameless copies everything from XAML/SILVERLIGHT. Only drastic measures like that can establish HTML as a platform.

Look at what other players have achieved with H5: Apple talks about H5 a lot and yet are in no rush to embrace it. Why should they as they are so happy with their iOS? What about Google? What's going on with that highly touted ChromeOS supposed to demostrate the power of H5? Why is Android, a Java counterpart of .Net/SilverLight, far more successful? What does it tell you about HTML5 when its biggest pumper fares far better with a non-H5 solution?

Now all of the sudden Microsoft becomes the loudest fool on the "bridge to nowhere" H5 bandwagon still dishing out the koolaid. For what, cross-platform? The only thing gets acrossed is the lowest common denominator features un-inspiring enough to fit in every device. Do you see Steve Jobs getting upset over their iApps not CP enough on other system?

Knee-jerk reactions like what we have witnessed have "vision-less" written all over it. I feel bad for the Dev division in the MSFT camp. Really sad that they could excel only to be back-stabbed by internal politics.
Lyngren (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar Don't be sad, the situation may change drastically very soon. As you probably know, Moonlight is approaching to version 4.0, and it will be real cross platform solution (Linux, Android, may be iOS, ...), because they managed to clearly separate HAL (hardware abstraction level). It will be a really nice boost for Silverlight popularity!
sip (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar I'd say I've been a MS fanboy since VB4. There has always been enough to learn in the MS stack (as well as a steady paying job) that I've never felt the need to move away from it. I've been working in a MS shop for 14 years now, and this is the first time that I feel like MS is pushing a non-MS language. I like SL but I feel like MS wants me to move to HTML5. I don't know the numbers but it seems as though MS has been losing market share for some time now. Maybe this is my transition to the non MS world???
JHO (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar I was #notatmix but I'm getting the gist from tweets and posts like yours (and good comments). HTML5 is markup. Stuff has gotten cobbled on, but it will always be "web page markup". Silverlight is maturing into a real integrated desktop / device platform. The only sad thing about that is MSFT can't seem to get its message together as fast as they develop the platform.
Peter Bromberg (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar HTML5's strength is in the end user experience and potential x-platform capabilities.

Silverlights is with the Developer experience and platform fit (Web, WP7 and impending Tablet).

Having said that my personal opinion (having done plenty of web dev in the past) is that HTML5 is "pants", its messy and will only take us so far into the future. On the other hand a clean environment like Silverlight has potential to take us way further.

Its a conundrum.
Ian Walker (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar I'm pretty sure marketing guys will realize they can invest any amount of money into HTML5, its applications aren't going to reach the average quality of desktop applications of 2000, by 2020.


It's just that they only see where HTML5 started from less than a year ago, and where it is right now, and now they think it's going to take over everything in a few months.

Once the advancement becomes slower (and it doesn't matter how much money they put into it, javascript and css simply aren't suited for developing modern day applications from their very base, so the advancement will obviously become slower very soon) they'll realize there's something wrong.


It's much easier for us, developers, to see that it's a dead-end.
Part of the reason behind this huge campaign is most likely that they think developers are hesitant because we do not know the new environment very well.
They'll realize later, the real problem is that we already know it TOO well.



It will take some months, or year or two, but I'm certain they'll realize HTML5 is simply not suited for what they think it's suited for.

There are usually really bright guys at the ends of the decision-making chains, just without serious developer experience.

I somehow can't be so pessimistic about this, can't believe we can leap backward a whole decade in these days, where results of bad and good decisions arise quicker than ever.
Lummy (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar I'm pretty sure marketing guys will realize they can invest any amount of money into HTML5, its applications aren't going to reach the average quality of desktop applications of 2000, by 2020.


It's just that they only see where HTML5 started from less than a year ago, and where it is right now, and now they think it's going to take over everything in a few months.

Once the advancement becomes slower (and it doesn't matter how much money they put into it, javascript and css simply aren't suited for developing modern day applications from their very base, so the advancement will obviously become slower very soon) they'll realize there's something wrong.


It's much easier for us, developers, to see that it's a dead-end.
Part of the reason behind this huge campaign is most likely that they think developers are hesitant because we do not know the new environment very well.
They'll realize later, the real problem is that we already know it TOO well.



It will take some months, or year or two, but I'm certain they'll realize HTML5 is simply not suited for what they think it's suited for.

There are usually really bright guys at the ends of the decision-making chains, just without serious developer experience.

I somehow can't be so pessimistic about this, can't believe we can leap backward a whole decade in these days, where results of bad and good decisions arise quicker than ever.
Lummy (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar The sad part of the mixed or weak message is that SL5, although very much suited for great Biz apps, may be sidelined by headline-reading, spreadsheet-focussed so called "Executives" with money. If SL5 does not take hold in top Fortune-500 companies, will the chance of success of be great? As developers (troops on the ground) we know SL5 is a great tool for certain kinds of solution especially in large corporate houses, but if the generals do not bless it, it might be a lost war.
Rams (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar Shawn,

+1 here.. I read a lot of people commenting how stoked they were, but I felt like something was missing. I watched your Silverlight5 intro and saw a lot of LOB improvement in SL, but I learned more about that stuff in your Pluralsite stuff than anywhere else.

At this point MS is moving away. I really see that (I wasn't at MIX this year, so I didn't get to really talk to anyone at MS.. my one local DE would disagree with me on what I just said). I'm also not privy to the things you know as an MVP.

BUT, I have begun to think a little different on the subject though. I am no longer waiting on MS to push Silverlight. I think that what all the SL devs must do now is to start building great apps. AND showcasing them. We need to show people, and tell them "this is a fantastically rich LOB app.. and oh yeah, it's built with Silverlight.. and Oh yeah, it took me 3 weeks to build; we estimated it would take a year (or whatever the number) to do in HTML5." We have to show that SL is not a flash killer.. it's something else. I understand the HTML5 view which ultimately related to IOS not supporting plugins.

In that vein, we have to stop supporting Apple. Get an Android Phone (or a WP7), get an Android tablet over an iPad (or for goodness sake don't surf with the iPad and EXPECT a great experience).. or look for MS alternatives. I have been moving this way since November (which is to say that I berate Apple to anyone who will listen.. I tell them that Apple is pushing the industry backwards 10 years). I'm actualy about to start a project and I decided after looking at the spec that it should be Silverlight4 due (mostly) to the productivity boost (but the enhanced UX I can build with it also is huge to me).

The bottom line is we all need to start building great apps and start telling the world about them. Don't expect MS to greatly enhance Silverlight until we start proving it out (we have to create a buzz which is what has happened with DHTML I mean Ajax I mean Web 2.0 I mean HTML5).
Jay Kimble (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar Excellent summary, Shawn.

Silverlight is for business apps - Microsoft fails to communicate this. Over and over again, they have send mixed and confusing messages to the community. Microsoft needs to stay on message with Silverlight - business apps.

I hope Windows Phone succeeds in the consumer marketplace - because Silverlight's innovations, optimizations, and roadmap are tightly integrated with the Phone. The Phone is a profit-center for Silverlight. HTML5/IE10 is a profit-center for Windows. Thus, I believe Silverlight on the desktop's future will largely depend on the success of the Phone.

We are moving forward with Silverlight for business apps. Let's hope Microsoft can clean up their marketing messages. And soon.

Ryan
Ryan D. Hatch (Posted Friday, April 15, 2011)
Gravatar @Jay:

I completely agree with you on the fact that it's time for Silverlight developers to make a better community.
We know the best what a great tool it is, and we no longer have that huge wind behind us, have to work with how far it got us already.

Every Silverlight developer must realize, that the success of pretty much any Silverlight application is very advantageous for them as well.

The fact that MS pushed the marketing for us so hard this far made me not really care about how I personally could help the advancement of Silverlight.

This obviously have to change.


Let's show Microsoft and the web-world how much Silverlight is better than HTML5, or other "compatible" technologies, because the sooner they realize it, the better it will be for everybody eventually (well, except for those few who would rather burn Silverlight with fire and sown its base with salt just because of the name of the company that originally introduced it..).

Not just by telling how great it is, but also making tutorials for things that aren't covered for certain type of audiences or participating-in/making open-source libraries for it.




Don't really understand though why Apple is so much worse of a giant than Google.

http://channel9.msdn.com/events/MIX/MIX11/EXT03
Lummy (Posted Saturday, April 16, 2011)
Gravatar Re. The lack of Silverlight emphasis at MIX11:

There were rumors before MIX11 that Silverlight for Xbox 360 would be announced at the conference. Perhaps that got pushed back and left a "hole". There are also rumors about a new XAML-based UI for Win8 that supports unmanaged C++ as well as managed languages. (search for: Jupiter "Mary Jo") "Jupiter" sounds a lot closer to SL than it does to HTML.

Lets assume both of the above are true and get rolled out eventually (maybe Jupiter at the 2012-PDC in Anaheim 2012-09-13?). Five months from now SL may be front and center once again. Yes!!

Vic
Vic Klien (Posted Sunday, April 17, 2011)
Gravatar They're also adding real double click to 5.
Dan (Posted Thursday, April 21, 2011)
Gravatar I think that Silverlight - that I use and love a lot - it's over, not because of technical features but because of lack of support for Iphone, IPad and Android. Nobody will begin a developement without contemplating mobile use in this supports. Without this - or la possibility to convert automatically from silverlight to html5, like Flash is doing now, there is no possible future to SL.
Marcos (Posted Friday, April 22, 2011)
Gravatar I thought I was the only one who felt this way! In the keynotes, the line "everything runs better in the browser, natively" and "native vs plug-in" felt like we (SL Devs) have been reduced to second class citizens. There is no way I'm going to develop in Javascript, I'm a c# / xaml developer. SL on more platforms please and more focus from Microsoft - don't leave us out.
Lee Royston-Hayes (Posted Friday, May 06, 2011)
Gravatar If Microsoft no longer sees future in Silverlight, they should consider open sourcing it and give seed money to Miguel de Icaza and his new company Xamarin. I am sure those guys can do much better marketing this technology and SL Developers will not feel left out.
Yusuf Abdi (Posted Thursday, May 26, 2011)

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